Well said. Pros and cons on everything. Every nutritional dogma is suspect today. Self experiment becomes required. I took up to 8g nicotinic acid triple buffered about a year. Worked my way up slowly and back down slowly. I thoroughly enjoy the flush. I also enjoy the calm feeling I got that made whatever addictive substance or behavior feel just ho hum boring. As in if I can not get to something productive to do, I would rather sit and think bored. In a good way.
Never sure if that is due to the nicotinic acid though. I did find I flush higher at lower doses. I stopped all doses a month ago.
I can not name anything that changed since I started in on the nicotinic acid experiment. I did not notice any changes in skin or other epithelial tissue quality. My zinc oxide / shea butter cream improves healing and skin integrity just as well with or without nicotinic acid. Have read about topical applications causing flushes that last for days and get alarming. I have been careful to avoid nicotinic acid during reactions to stings, bites and urushiol reactions. Nicotinic flush during already red itchy burning skin seems basis of bad logic.
While nicotinic acid is calming, warming and pleasant, I can think of a few drugs that do that as well. I can also get similar feelings from eating good quality meat and carbohydrates - think Thanksgiving dinner.
What is missing in the anecdotal literature of this past couple years of a hundred or so of us trying nicotinic acid is a list of ailments that resolve. Hard to doubt the efficacy of avoiding vA and oral vD and copper. Anecdotal evidence of improvements are rife. Has anyone else seen any testimonials raving about nicotinic acid?
As a sage once said, it feels like mental masturbation to continue to use a supplement that is amply provided when access to good quality meat is available. A much wiser person called it metabolic minutiae.
On the cautionary side, my most persistent symptom these last 35 years is leg and foot cramps. Life gets harsh when cramps come often enough to interrupt and or prevent REM cycles. The reason I reduced and stopped the nicotinic acid experiment was that during the last few months, the cramping woke me up too often. Ironic since the first three months, the cramps receded once I triple buffered to get the pH of the solution up over 7.5 . At first I attributed the reduced cramps to the bicarbonates and carbonates of magnesium, sodium and potassium. That may have been the case. Either way along with the cramps, intermittent flank pains did not reassure me.
Feels like with each experiment, I come away thinking, who is the one individual in all of the low vA paradigm with the best results? What did that individual do differently? What did that individual overcome? What am I not learning yet. So far I keep coming back to one name.
I’ve been doing Dr smith’s love your liver program for several years now. When he started recommending NA, I tried it. I didn’t mind the flush and was able to increase my dose easily. But then I noticed that I was gaining weight very steadily. I stopped the NA and my weight went back to my baseline. Each time I try and add back more than just a little bit, the same thing happens.
So I’ve just stopped and have no plans to start up again. I eat a lot of meat (carnivore diet), and get a good amount in my food already. And my feeling is less is more with supplements. Ideally I will get to the point where I’m detoxed enough that I can let go of the few other things I’m taking right now too, and only keep in some binders and electrolytes.
I am also carnivore for 3 years. I looked up the niacin content of red meat in Judy Cho's book and then decided I would just get niacin from my diet. I had recently went up to 500mg of niacin lately. I just stopped about a week ago plus the other supplements from Garretts store and have lost 1/2 in of subcutaneous fat from my middle. Garrett says LYL is not a weight loss diet but the 2 health problems I have put weight around your middle. Hypothyroidism and pre-diabetes. So to me if that stays there then his thing is not working for me. I was doing LYL for 6 mos
Glad you chose to stop it! I wrecked me! However, had I not taken it, I would not have found the connection to calcium, like I did. God made a way to turn the situation around for me. So glad He did, too!
I agree, if it makes your problem worse, you need to do something else. I still fully believe in a low vA diet, but we do need to address the calcium issue that is not addressed in LYL.
Thanks so much for this info! I am 60 and a carnivore doing the LYL for 6 mos. I have noticed I can't really do 500 mg of niacin and have also been wondering why they encourage higher and higher doses of niacin but no calcium. I am totally ready to back off of niacin because why spend the money and also carnivores believe you just need meat, no supplements except some take electrolytes. Calcium is an electrolyte. ♥️
Glad to see you give it up! I don't want anyone else to damage themselves with it.
If you look at what they feed big cats in captivity, the ONLY supplement they feed is calcium. And, the most used one for this is calcium carbonate.
Yep! Calcium is an electrolyte that is not addressed in the LYL network. I went 4 years without it and just kept getting worse. Finally took calcium and fixed a bunch of issues that came up along the way. Things that were considered "detox". So glad I am free!
I tried buffering NA with calcium carbonate and it did not help. You can always try it, but I tried for many months before ditching the NA. I instantly had a milk reduction when I flushed. I didn't like that. It was painful. And, no matter how much calcium I took prior to or even with the NA, it still dried me up instantly.
Yes, it is. High cytosolic calcium is a driver for most illnesses. This is how vA works. It causes calcium to go to the cytosol. NA and many other things do the same. There is simply not enough calcium to go around, in my opinion.
I thought that NA drove lipolysis. This is why my mind is spinning a little bit because this (and Will's post seems to be conflicting with that info). Are there some conditions in which it promotes lipolysis and others in which it ends up promoting lipogenesis?
NA can cause weight gain. Many people in the LYL network have had this happen, including myself. I lost it once I started calcium and stopped the NA. I think, with the low calcium diet and the high dose NA being pushed in LYL causes many problems. Every study done on NA is with people eating a fairly toxic diet and, chances are, they don't stop that. They also have a higher calcium intake than low vA people do. If NA pushes calcium into the cells and too much calcium in the cells causes damage, this is not good. This means, people taking high dose NA for long periods of time end up very calcium deficient as when you constantly have, or require, calcium to constantly be in the cells to counter an acid, you use it up and it is no longer readily available. This causes the body to leach it from the bones, when you don't get enough from your diet. And, when you are calcium deficient, many processes in the body simply do not work, including ALDH.
Thanks for the information, but I haven't seen anyone talking about vitamin K2, which is essential for bone and cardiovascular health. I believe we can't take calcium supplements without vitamin K2. 🙏🏼
This is true, but in some cases, like mine, some may not be able to take K2 for a time. There are many things that are required for calcium to bind to bones and for good bone health. However, some may need to just do calcium to get calcium levels up so they can tolerate the other things, like K2.
Here I am again, now attempting to fix over supplementation of nicotinic acid! First it was too much vA because a practitioner used Standard Process in her protocol (loaded with vA). After being on LYL diet, I think I’m calcium deficient. And I’ve gained 20# while taking Nicotinic acid. Will I ever be healthy? I’m 74 years old and feel like I’m still chasing an illusive dream of health.
It is not an illusive dream! Calcium changed my life for the better! I am now living and not just surviving. It feels sooo good!!! Glad you stopped the niacin. Hopefully, you'll be able to lose the weight you gained soon.
What about taking nicotinic acid instead of statins? My doctor said that my bad Cholesterol was through the roof & tried to give me a prescription to lower it, so I started taking nicotinic acid instead. Im currently on 150 mg. daily & I was planning on going up and begin to buffer tomorrow. I think it takes 500 mg. a day for it to work or am I mistaken? Also are you still seeing patients?
Well, for one, these people probably had a high vA intake for all those years and still did, during the study. What happens with calcium with a high vA diet? Calcifications. What would niacin do with those calcifications, ALONG with a high calcium intake? It would take the calcium in the wrong place and put it where it should. The problem lies with a calcium deficient diet. When you take an acid, of any kind, and are deficient in the mineral the body uses to buffer acids, you will become more deficient and you will lose bone mass. This is how vA causes osteoporosis. It turns into retinoic acid and the body pulls calcium from the bones to buffer it.
This was an awesome write up, and I, for one, will never touch nicotinic acid sups ever again. There are other pathways that are much better to use anyway.
Hope, I only recently heard about your substack and your situation from the X community with GS. I have your podcast interview queued also. Have you heard the recent LYL on Calcium? I'd like to know your thoughts in the huge walk-back ND did. Basically, "Calcium is now good, never told you not to consume it."
I think a negative of these vitamins/minerals in isolation studies is that you will never get the full story without knowing the other factors that influence the results (or that pathway). I would say only SOME researchers actually recognize discrepancies and relay it within the article. Other times you have to infer, or risk missing the point entirely and then you demonize an entire mineral/nutrient forever, because they actually don't know enough how everything works. I'm sure many of us (including myself) have done that, though.
Awe!! Thank you! I really learned a lot about niacin doing that and I will safely say I will never supplement it, again, either. I fully believe it made a calcium deficiency, in me MUCH worse and caused my gall bladder to be removed. Not a good thing, at all.
Well, for the fact that he knew about this 7 months ago and sat on it for 6, after I sent him my article, and sat on it for that long while he silenced me and trapped me into speaking about it, and listening to what he says about it, he didn't really change his stance. He just acts like he did. His suggestions are more beans and grains. This will not fix a deficiency that most get doing his protocol. It would have never been enough for me. You need a balance between minerals and electrolytes and his protocol does not do that.
Yes, we all do that. We just need to admit we do and thank those who help us realize it.
Thank you Hope for this info! I started NA even before I knew of LYL mainly because it is supposed to help with detoxing the effects of radiation (and secondarily for extremely high LDL). Specifically wireless radiation in my case. I know of one first-hand account of resolving electro "hyper sensitivity" with NA. I know that EMFs affect voltage-gated ion channels, including calcium channels. Wondering about the dynamics of Ca with both NA and EMFs.
Thank you.
Well said. Pros and cons on everything. Every nutritional dogma is suspect today. Self experiment becomes required. I took up to 8g nicotinic acid triple buffered about a year. Worked my way up slowly and back down slowly. I thoroughly enjoy the flush. I also enjoy the calm feeling I got that made whatever addictive substance or behavior feel just ho hum boring. As in if I can not get to something productive to do, I would rather sit and think bored. In a good way.
Never sure if that is due to the nicotinic acid though. I did find I flush higher at lower doses. I stopped all doses a month ago.
I can not name anything that changed since I started in on the nicotinic acid experiment. I did not notice any changes in skin or other epithelial tissue quality. My zinc oxide / shea butter cream improves healing and skin integrity just as well with or without nicotinic acid. Have read about topical applications causing flushes that last for days and get alarming. I have been careful to avoid nicotinic acid during reactions to stings, bites and urushiol reactions. Nicotinic flush during already red itchy burning skin seems basis of bad logic.
While nicotinic acid is calming, warming and pleasant, I can think of a few drugs that do that as well. I can also get similar feelings from eating good quality meat and carbohydrates - think Thanksgiving dinner.
What is missing in the anecdotal literature of this past couple years of a hundred or so of us trying nicotinic acid is a list of ailments that resolve. Hard to doubt the efficacy of avoiding vA and oral vD and copper. Anecdotal evidence of improvements are rife. Has anyone else seen any testimonials raving about nicotinic acid?
As a sage once said, it feels like mental masturbation to continue to use a supplement that is amply provided when access to good quality meat is available. A much wiser person called it metabolic minutiae.
On the cautionary side, my most persistent symptom these last 35 years is leg and foot cramps. Life gets harsh when cramps come often enough to interrupt and or prevent REM cycles. The reason I reduced and stopped the nicotinic acid experiment was that during the last few months, the cramping woke me up too often. Ironic since the first three months, the cramps receded once I triple buffered to get the pH of the solution up over 7.5 . At first I attributed the reduced cramps to the bicarbonates and carbonates of magnesium, sodium and potassium. That may have been the case. Either way along with the cramps, intermittent flank pains did not reassure me.
Feels like with each experiment, I come away thinking, who is the one individual in all of the low vA paradigm with the best results? What did that individual do differently? What did that individual overcome? What am I not learning yet. So far I keep coming back to one name.
You're welcome. And, thank you!
Yeah, I have had my fair share of side effects from nicotinic acid, as well. Glad you finally gave it up.
Yep! Grant.
Thanks Hope! This is great information.
I’ve been doing Dr smith’s love your liver program for several years now. When he started recommending NA, I tried it. I didn’t mind the flush and was able to increase my dose easily. But then I noticed that I was gaining weight very steadily. I stopped the NA and my weight went back to my baseline. Each time I try and add back more than just a little bit, the same thing happens.
So I’ve just stopped and have no plans to start up again. I eat a lot of meat (carnivore diet), and get a good amount in my food already. And my feeling is less is more with supplements. Ideally I will get to the point where I’m detoxed enough that I can let go of the few other things I’m taking right now too, and only keep in some binders and electrolytes.
You're welcome! Glad you enjoyed it!
A lot of people gain weight on niacin. Glad you stopped it. Most people do get enough. No need to megadose on it, like is suggested in LYL.
I am also carnivore for 3 years. I looked up the niacin content of red meat in Judy Cho's book and then decided I would just get niacin from my diet. I had recently went up to 500mg of niacin lately. I just stopped about a week ago plus the other supplements from Garretts store and have lost 1/2 in of subcutaneous fat from my middle. Garrett says LYL is not a weight loss diet but the 2 health problems I have put weight around your middle. Hypothyroidism and pre-diabetes. So to me if that stays there then his thing is not working for me. I was doing LYL for 6 mos
Glad you chose to stop it! I wrecked me! However, had I not taken it, I would not have found the connection to calcium, like I did. God made a way to turn the situation around for me. So glad He did, too!
I agree, if it makes your problem worse, you need to do something else. I still fully believe in a low vA diet, but we do need to address the calcium issue that is not addressed in LYL.
Me too. I think I get enough in beef
Thanks so much for this info! I am 60 and a carnivore doing the LYL for 6 mos. I have noticed I can't really do 500 mg of niacin and have also been wondering why they encourage higher and higher doses of niacin but no calcium. I am totally ready to back off of niacin because why spend the money and also carnivores believe you just need meat, no supplements except some take electrolytes. Calcium is an electrolyte. ♥️
You're welcome!
Glad to see you give it up! I don't want anyone else to damage themselves with it.
If you look at what they feed big cats in captivity, the ONLY supplement they feed is calcium. And, the most used one for this is calcium carbonate.
Yep! Calcium is an electrolyte that is not addressed in the LYL network. I went 4 years without it and just kept getting worse. Finally took calcium and fixed a bunch of issues that came up along the way. Things that were considered "detox". So glad I am free!
What is scary is pregnant or lactating women's health needs being ignored
Yes, it is.
Is non GMO calcium citrate ok?
Yes.
So if one is taking high dose nicotinic acid, in your opinion, is it then beneficial to use calcium carbonate as your buffer?
And is cytosolic calcium the same thing that Will identified as a driver of lypogenesis?
I tried buffering NA with calcium carbonate and it did not help. You can always try it, but I tried for many months before ditching the NA. I instantly had a milk reduction when I flushed. I didn't like that. It was painful. And, no matter how much calcium I took prior to or even with the NA, it still dried me up instantly.
Yes, it is. High cytosolic calcium is a driver for most illnesses. This is how vA works. It causes calcium to go to the cytosol. NA and many other things do the same. There is simply not enough calcium to go around, in my opinion.
I thought that NA drove lipolysis. This is why my mind is spinning a little bit because this (and Will's post seems to be conflicting with that info). Are there some conditions in which it promotes lipolysis and others in which it ends up promoting lipogenesis?
NA can cause weight gain. Many people in the LYL network have had this happen, including myself. I lost it once I started calcium and stopped the NA. I think, with the low calcium diet and the high dose NA being pushed in LYL causes many problems. Every study done on NA is with people eating a fairly toxic diet and, chances are, they don't stop that. They also have a higher calcium intake than low vA people do. If NA pushes calcium into the cells and too much calcium in the cells causes damage, this is not good. This means, people taking high dose NA for long periods of time end up very calcium deficient as when you constantly have, or require, calcium to constantly be in the cells to counter an acid, you use it up and it is no longer readily available. This causes the body to leach it from the bones, when you don't get enough from your diet. And, when you are calcium deficient, many processes in the body simply do not work, including ALDH.
I made a subreddit for anyone who wants to discuss Vitamin A toxicity and everything surrounding it:
https://www.reddit.com/r/vitaminatoxic/
Thanks for the information, but I haven't seen anyone talking about vitamin K2, which is essential for bone and cardiovascular health. I believe we can't take calcium supplements without vitamin K2. 🙏🏼
This is true, but in some cases, like mine, some may not be able to take K2 for a time. There are many things that are required for calcium to bind to bones and for good bone health. However, some may need to just do calcium to get calcium levels up so they can tolerate the other things, like K2.
I am hoping more calcium will help my leg cramps. Potassium doesn't help but sometimes salt stops them
Chances are, if potassium doesn't help, calcium should.
Oh, it's ON now.
I bet it is.
Here I am again, now attempting to fix over supplementation of nicotinic acid! First it was too much vA because a practitioner used Standard Process in her protocol (loaded with vA). After being on LYL diet, I think I’m calcium deficient. And I’ve gained 20# while taking Nicotinic acid. Will I ever be healthy? I’m 74 years old and feel like I’m still chasing an illusive dream of health.
It is not an illusive dream! Calcium changed my life for the better! I am now living and not just surviving. It feels sooo good!!! Glad you stopped the niacin. Hopefully, you'll be able to lose the weight you gained soon.
I wish you could suggest an appropriate amount of CA but since you can’t, will you please direct me to someone who can? Thanks.
A lot of people start with the RDA. You can experiment with more if you want.
By the way what do you think of iodine and whether or not we need to take it?
What about taking nicotinic acid instead of statins? My doctor said that my bad Cholesterol was through the roof & tried to give me a prescription to lower it, so I started taking nicotinic acid instead. Im currently on 150 mg. daily & I was planning on going up and begin to buffer tomorrow. I think it takes 500 mg. a day for it to work or am I mistaken? Also are you still seeing patients?
Do you have any thoughts or comments about this study (https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/39975675/)?
Thank you!
Well, for one, these people probably had a high vA intake for all those years and still did, during the study. What happens with calcium with a high vA diet? Calcifications. What would niacin do with those calcifications, ALONG with a high calcium intake? It would take the calcium in the wrong place and put it where it should. The problem lies with a calcium deficient diet. When you take an acid, of any kind, and are deficient in the mineral the body uses to buffer acids, you will become more deficient and you will lose bone mass. This is how vA causes osteoporosis. It turns into retinoic acid and the body pulls calcium from the bones to buffer it.
This was an awesome write up, and I, for one, will never touch nicotinic acid sups ever again. There are other pathways that are much better to use anyway.
Hope, I only recently heard about your substack and your situation from the X community with GS. I have your podcast interview queued also. Have you heard the recent LYL on Calcium? I'd like to know your thoughts in the huge walk-back ND did. Basically, "Calcium is now good, never told you not to consume it."
I think a negative of these vitamins/minerals in isolation studies is that you will never get the full story without knowing the other factors that influence the results (or that pathway). I would say only SOME researchers actually recognize discrepancies and relay it within the article. Other times you have to infer, or risk missing the point entirely and then you demonize an entire mineral/nutrient forever, because they actually don't know enough how everything works. I'm sure many of us (including myself) have done that, though.
Awe!! Thank you! I really learned a lot about niacin doing that and I will safely say I will never supplement it, again, either. I fully believe it made a calcium deficiency, in me MUCH worse and caused my gall bladder to be removed. Not a good thing, at all.
Well, for the fact that he knew about this 7 months ago and sat on it for 6, after I sent him my article, and sat on it for that long while he silenced me and trapped me into speaking about it, and listening to what he says about it, he didn't really change his stance. He just acts like he did. His suggestions are more beans and grains. This will not fix a deficiency that most get doing his protocol. It would have never been enough for me. You need a balance between minerals and electrolytes and his protocol does not do that.
Yes, we all do that. We just need to admit we do and thank those who help us realize it.
Thank you Hope for this info! I started NA even before I knew of LYL mainly because it is supposed to help with detoxing the effects of radiation (and secondarily for extremely high LDL). Specifically wireless radiation in my case. I know of one first-hand account of resolving electro "hyper sensitivity" with NA. I know that EMFs affect voltage-gated ion channels, including calcium channels. Wondering about the dynamics of Ca with both NA and EMFs.
Glad you asked that. I do plan on covering that, in the future. So, stayed tuned for that!